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87 xlt manual hubs poroblem


brettb

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searched and searched!
my 87 B2 engages 4wd just by locking the hubs?
It binds up really bad and lurches when like this and when actually shifted into 4wd?

Ive never had an isuue with any of my 4wd vehicles over the course of my life so i dont know how to even begin?

purchased truck this july has 141,000+ miles mostly having been towed behind an RV (apparently)

please any help would be greatly appreciated!
 


ab_slack

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Since you say "manual" I assume you have manual locking hubs with the knobs in the center of each hub and that you have a manual transfer case shifter (small shift next to main shift). If either is different let me know and I can possibly give more info.

Locking the manual hubs should not engage 4WD. All that does is connect the wheels to the front drive shaft. If you have the transfer case in 2wd there should be no problem. I drive like that most of the winter and over my three B2s I have probably put over 100K miles with hubs locked but in 2WD.

On the B2 with hubs locked and in 2wd, if everything is in good working order you can shift between 4WD (high) and 2WD at any speed without issue. In fact it is hard to tell it is shifting.

The 4WD does not have a front to rear differential so you can't run 4WD on dry pavement and even wet isn't recommended. Snow, mud and dirt is what it is for.

The binding you describe sounds very much like the transfer case is already in 4WD when you go and lock your hubs. That binding is what happens when you are in 4WD with hubs locked on dry pavement.

If you believe it is in 2WD it is either a transfer case problem, or it could be a problem with the transfer shifter key plate (the thing causes the pattern) being way out of adjustment so the little shift is too far back from the 2WD position and sitting in 4WD all the time. I had a problem with the key plate too far forward and it wouldn't stay in 4WD.

By the way, if you are in 4WD and hubs are unlocked, you will not get the binding.

A simple check. Park it, put it in gear, put it in 2WD. Have front wheel hubs unlocked.

Underneath you should be able to find the main drive shaft and the front drive shaft where it comes out of transfer case. With vehicle on the ground and it in 2WD you shouldn't be able to turn rear drive shaft, but the front drive shaft should turn freely. Do this by hand, don't try forcing with a wrench or you just could cause vehicle to roll.

With hubs unlocked and in 2WD, the front drive shaft and both axle shafts should turn freely.

With hubs unlocked and in 4WD, the front drive shaft will not turn (unless vehicle rolls) but it still should be possible to turn the axle shafts. In this case if you turn one axle shaft the other should turn the opposite direction.

If in 4WD and hubs locked, you shouldn't be able to turn the front drive shaft or either axle shaft in the front without the wheels turning/vehicle moving.

So see if it matches what it should be.

I suspect you are going to find that with hubs unlocked and in 2WD (assuming the binding you described was in 2WD) that the front drive shaft won't turn but the axle shafts will turn. This means either transfer case is stuck in 4WD for some reason (mechanical problem) or there is a transfer case shifter linkage problem or it is that key plate I mentioned.

For what it is worth, when you shift from 4WD to 2WD, if you do that while there is binding present, the transfer case can stick with 4WD engaged because whatever in the transfer case can't release with tension wound into it. If you suspect that is the case go in reverse a short bit can help unwind the binding. If you only engage 4WD in slip situations like mud, snow or dirt you usually won't wind in enough tension to keep it from shifting out.
 

brettb

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thanks for the reply, Yes i have manual locking hubs with manual 4wd shifter and manual transmision.

I owned an 87 Ranger back in 89 that is the identical platform as my current B2! and would run it with hubs locked all winter and shift on the fly as needed.

current situation:
hubs unlocked in 2wd everything is normal
hubs locked and still in 2wd and i get binding on sharp turns forward and reverse but not as bad of binding as when shifted into 4wd like it should be?

i have stock suspension with new procomp shocks and 30" new tires so nothing unusual there.

just concerned about the "feeling" of 4wd when hubs are locked but still in 2wd?

thought about pulling off wheels and cleaning hubs as i imagine like everything else on this truck is still original and i'm guessing the 4wd wasnt used much or maintained? i dunno for sure just a guess coming from my interaction from the P.O whoe towed it behind an RV for 15 years?

when i get a chance i will try turning driveshafts as you mention? trying to avoid a trip to the 4x4 Dr. as i am going into my slow time for business and funds are tight! thanks again
 

ab_slack

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Sounds like you did the same in the ranger as I do in my B2s.

From your descriptions, the two checks I would be most interested in are the 2WD and hubs unlocked. Does the drive shaft turn. If it does not turn that means your transfer case is in 4WD and that is why it is binding up.


If that is good, then with hubs unlocked, put it in 4WD. Drive shaft should not turn. Then turn axle shafts, do they turn freely and if you turn one, does the other turn in the opposite direction.

You have 4 u-joints in that front drive train plus two wheel bearings that only see use when your hubs are locked (or 4x4 engaged). A problem in any of those may be causing grief. You should be able to tell by rotating the shafts by hand. A bad u-joint may not be obvious.

Also binding should only occur in turns. You should be able to go strait forward or back without it binding. At least 50ft or so. If it binds in short distance going strait there is something wrong.

That is unless someone replaced one of the diffs and ratio is different than the other diff. Also it assumes all tires are the same size. And when I say same size they really need to be the same tire type with about the same ware. I had no end of problems with my second BII because it came with a mix and matched set of tires. They were all the same specified size but they evidently weren't.


If you do have someone work on the front, make sure they understand that the shaft phasing on the right hand axle shaft is important. The left hand only has one u-joint and that allows turning, but the right hand axle shaft has two u-joints and it is set up like a normal drive shaft phased with some intentional angles. That way the rotational speed variations cancel out.

When I had work done they ignored the phasing. With the phasing off it will vibrate. It will become noticeable to a significant degree above 40mph (although I could tell as little as 25mph something wasn't right) and get worse. You can't get the vibration out without getting that phasing right. My shop insisted that because there was no "key" in the slip joint in the middle of that axle shaft that phasing wasn't important.

For that reason I ended up teaching myself how to tear apart the spindles and replace u-joints. The front drive-shaft u-joint is very easy to replace because pulling out the shaft is very easy. The axle shafts involve taking down the spindles so much more involved.

My shop, tried using a slide hammer to pull out the stub shaft out of the differential on the right hand side. That uses a c-clip, they had to open the diff. I haven't let them do any work on it since.
 

JerryC

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Sounds like you might have a locker (locking differential) in the front. If you do, locking the hubs could get you some binding on turns.

Easy test, lock one hub and try to spin both axles by hand. if neither turns, you've got a limited slip or locker in there (or something broken).
 

ab_slack

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Sounds like you might have a locker (locking differential) in the front. If you do, locking the hubs could get you some binding on turns.

Easy test, lock one hub and try to spin both axles by hand. if neither turns, you've got a limited slip or locker in there (or something broken).


A good point, although a locker and a limited slip differential are quite different.

The test outlined here would identify a locker I don't believe it would pick up a limited slip differential.

A locker would be something added after market.

Limited slip diff will still allow slip and would not be binding with the hubs locked. If it did, then a limited slip in the rear would be binding around every turn.
 

JerryC

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A good point, although a locker and a limited slip differential are quite different.

The test outlined here would identify a locker I don't believe it would pick up a limited slip differential.

A locker would be something added after market.

Limited slip diff will still allow slip and would not be binding with the hubs locked. If it did, then a limited slip in the rear would be binding around every turn.
I agree that a normal limited slip wouldn't have his symptoms. But I'm not discounting the possibility of some non-standard modifications such over springing the clutches. Also that somebody welded the spider gears in an open differential...
 
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ab_slack

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I agree that a normal limited slip wouldn't have his symptoms. But I'm not discounting the possibility of some non-standard modifications such over springing the clutches. Also that somebody welded the spider gears in an open differential...
Yep and good you have brought up. Wasn't disputing, just expanding. Thanks.
 

brettb

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finally got a chance to get under the vehicle!

in free position the front spins fine

when turned to lock but is still in 2wd the front spins 1 to 2 inches in either direction only?

while driving in 2wd with it locked i get less bind on slow turns than locked and in 4wd but when free and 2wd i dont get any sign of binding?

any new thoughts?

after 4th elk season here (barring weather) i will try and change fluids as im guessing they havent been done ever? maybe then i will see something in there or not?
 

JerryC

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finally got a chance to get under the vehicle!

in free position the front spins fine

when turned to lock but is still in 2wd the front spins 1 to 2 inches in either direction only?

while driving in 2wd with it locked i get less bind on slow turns than locked and in 4wd but when free and 2wd i dont get any sign of binding?

any new thoughts?

after 4th elk season here (barring weather) i will try and change fluids as im guessing they havent been done ever? maybe then i will see something in there or not?
What are you spinning? Driveshaft or axle? Are both hubs locked or just one?
 

brettb

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both locked and I'm spinning front driveshaft.
 

JerryC

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Ok, unlock one hub and try again.
If the drive shaft spins freely then it's an open differential. If it doesn't change then you have either a limited slip or locker type of differential.
 

ab_slack

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In the "free" position what are you spinning? One axle shaft? Both axle shafts? Drive shaft?

when turned to lock but is still in 2wd the front spins 1 to 2 inches in either direction only?
If you have hubs locked, axle shafts and drive shaft aren't going to turn. The bit of turn you get is slop. "2 inches" doesn't mean much. Is 45 degrees? 90 degrees (aka 1/4 rotation), rotate half way? A full turn?

What about when you have it in 4WD and hubs unlocked. Can you rotate front drive shaft? you shouldn't be able to. Can you rotate an axle shaft? you should. Assuming it does, what is happening with the other axle shaft when you do that? Again this is with it in 4WD and hubs unlocked.
 

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