Starter / flywheel problems again

[wild horse]

Ok so my 3 month old starter and ring gear are wipped out again. Its been grinding bad for awhile then finaly went out today which leaves me stranded with out a vehical to go to work with. What did I do wrong ? Ireplaced all the battery cables and a new alternator ect ect ect. and now I'm at a loss of what to do, It wont start at all , Just grinds real bad. What is my next step from here? I am going to drop the starter tomarrow and see how bad the damage is but I know it wont be good. Any ideas? I'm about ready to rip all my stuff off of it and send it to the crusher or sell it for what I can get out of it.

 

[vwa1]

Hey wild, check your PM's I haven't been following your saga, but it looks like you've been having these issues for awhile. Is your B2 a manual or auto? I have an extra manual flywheel and ring gear off an '86 with a 2.9. not sure if they are the same though. Do you think it could be an alignment issue causing all this trouble? I have heard of people having these problems if one or both alignment dowel pins are missing between the transmission and engine, so that might be something to check out.

Is it possible you have the wrong diameter flexplate/flywheel? Also, what does the starter look like after this happens? Is the drive all chewed up? Can you spin it backwards?

 

[vwa1]

Hey I found a thing on a network my shop is part of. Apparently this is pretty common issue with the 2.8's.

Here is the post - "The problem is often the bell housing that warps, causing the starter to be pulled away from the ring gear. The easy fix is to install a larger 10 tooth drive in place of the OE 9 tootth drive. It is .100 larger and will engage .050 deeper into the flywheel, usually enough to "repair" the problem. Or you can go to a Carquest store (who handle our product) and order a 72-3170-10, which will already have the 10 tooth drive installed just to remedy the problem."

Another post says "The starter you need is a 3188 which has 9 tooth. Talk to a local rebuilder or auto-electric shop. Tell them make you the same starter with a 10 tooth drive of a 3196 Ford starter that is used on 85-90 Ford Escort with a 1.9L engine! Give it a try, it may solve your problem."

If you are handy, you can install the 10 tooth drive on your old starter and give it a try. I found NAPA part# BK 6561137. Carquest# 25-1983. And maybe O'Reilly #BWD SD353. I say maybe on the oreilly part because it is listed as 11 tooth, but the application is correct.

 

[vwa1]

I read back through a few of your posts. Are you still running without the metal block plate between the engine and trans? Not sure it's worth removing the transmission for, but if your flexplate is bad again you really should install that piece. Especially since you are having trouble with the starter and ring gear. Car manufacturers are notoriously cheap, especially in the mid 80's. These are companies that did away with transmission drain plugs because they cost something like 1 quarter of 1 cent per car. What I'm getting at is if they are installing a $0.25 piece of aluminum on every single unit there is a good reason for it.

 

[wild horse]

Thanks vwa1 ! No when I redid everything back in december I did put the metal dust sheild back in so that is not the problem. I got a lifetime warrenty orileys starter which has been a royal pain in my ass to say the least . So I pulled the starter today and found out that the new starter bolts that I bought last week had backed out and stripped some threds so now I cant even get the old bolts back in . Im am ready to shove a rag in the tank and burn it to the ground. No matter what I do I cant get the problem fixed and its taking every penny I have and earn working on the dam thing. Could it be that the starters dont have enough kick in the bendex to fully engauge the flywheel ? It seams to be a problem with rebuilt starters from orileys. O and the starter and ring gear seam to be fine .

 

[vwa1]

I own a repair shop and we use ONLY O'Reilly Ultima brand reman starters and alternators. I've been in business since January of 2009 and can count the number of legitimate warranty units on one hand so far. At first I installed Carquest and NAPA units and they have ALL failed, so it's O'Reilly all the way now. I honestly think the problem isn't really the starter, it's that your bell-housing is warped like in my second post.

You can helicoil the bolt holes that hold the starter on, so that's not the end of the world. Make sure to use red loctite on the helicoil inserts if you do. Then use lock-washers on the starter bolts.

I would do that 10 tooth starter drive upgrade.

I can sell you one of my used starters, but I really don't think they will fix it either. They are from O'Reilly's too lol. If you want I could install a 10 tooth bendix in one of my used starters and send it to you, but It will probably end up being $50 or so plus the shipping. And there's no guarantee it would fix the problem, although it's likely that it would. Any decent "old-school" independent shop should be able to do this in around an hour or less, especially if they have a nice clean reman starter to work with.

It's really not hard to do yourself. Might want to practice on an old one first.

 

[wild horse]

Thanks bud. Let me see what I can come up with and I'll let you know.

 

[wild horse]

Well I finaly had my B2 looked at today by a shop and was told that no matter what I do I wont be able to stop the grinding because it has to much " crank walk" . So I need a new motor or rebuild mine , But just wanted to say thanks for all the advice.

 

[vwa1]

Oh man, thats a bummer.

 

[JerryC]

I'd Ike to hear that explained.

The flywheel to starter gear has to have much more engagement surface and allowable variance versus the maximum allowable crank movement.

Crank end play and runout are usually in the thousandths of an inch. Seems to me if the end play or runout was enough to mess up starter engagement you'd be hearing it in a very bad kind of way.

 

[wild horse]

Thrust berring is gone .

 

[wild horse]

It's the thrust bearing that went bad is what they told me.

 

[JerryC]

It's the thrust bearing that went bad is what they told me.

I just cant picture the crank moving so much that the starter has problems. Not and still be running, or making a ton of noise and/or leaking oil.

 

[vwa1]

It's possible I suppose. It wouldn't necessarily leak oil or anything. I'm trying to picture what would hit if the crank moved. I suppose the flywheel would move forward into the back of the block or into the flat part of the starter drive because of the forward pressure caused by the clutch being depressed when starting. Wonder if the noise is less if it's started with the clutch pedal up. Or if the starter was shimmed out. Hmmm...

If theres any doubt, crank endplay isn't hard to check. I would think enough to cause these problems would be evident without a dial indicator. Just get a prybar behind the crank pulley and see if it moves out. Then put the prybar on the face of the pulley and push back in. Might be easier if you remove the belts first. If you can feel or see any real movement then it's screwed. I think the max spec is probably like .010". So you know, like damn near none at all. But... I think the crank would have to be moving a lot to cause the trouble you're having.

Had a Ford 4.2 a few years back that came in because it was making a strange chirping/squeaking noise. Turns out the thrust bearing was bad and the crank would walk forward enough that the torque converter bolts were rubbing on the block plate if I remember right. It had more than 1/8" of movement front to back! It started and ran great though, strangely enough. Just squeaked a bit.

So yeah, cars are weird and can fail in all kinds of new and exciting ways.

 

[wild horse]

Well the shop said when they put the tool on the end of the crank that the moment was in excess of 1/8 of an inch. But it doesn't matter because Monday I'm going to get my new motor. Its an 5.0 out of a 89 bronco.

 

[JerryC]

Well the shop said when they put the tool on the end of the crank that the moment was in excess of 1/8 of an inch. But it doesn't matter because Monday I'm going to get my new motor. Its an 5.0 out of a 89 bronco.

Score! :icon_thumby:

 

[wild horse]

Yea picking it up for $75 complete with harness and ecm but going to convert it to a 4-bbl carb.

 

[wild horse]

Well I got screwed out of the 302 so I'm just going to install a rering kit in the 2.8 and hope for the best ?

 

[vwa1]

If you're going with the "hope for the best" option, you may just want to drop the oil pan and slap a set of main bearings in it. The thrust bearing that failed is one of the mains. I'm not familiar with 2.8 fords, but usually the center main bearing is also the thrust bearing.

This might not even be possible though, because if the thrust bearing failed the crankshaft will move forward and start rubbing on the block, basically ruining both. That thrust bearing is what prevents that from happening.

Also, replacing main bearings is a pretty big pain in the rear even if all goes well.

For what it's worth, there are still used 2.8's on car-part.com. Might be cheaper and easier in the long run just to replace it.

 

[wild horse]

Thanks vwa1 ! Well I checked that site and its way beyond what I can afford. So I will just finish pulling the motor again and rering it and I"ll throw some pictures up of what I find. rockauto sells a compleate kit for $120 and some change so going to go that route.