Super Dana 30/Hybrid Dana30.44/Dana 44hp/Dana44lp which option?

[2.3splash]

Need some help, which option.

The Current Combo
87 Bronco II, 5.0L H0, C4 trans, BW Dual Tcase doubler, explorer 8.8LSD rear, Narrrowed (3") Dana YJ HP dana 30 on leaf springs. 35" MTR's.

Usage-narrow/off camber trails and rocks, no more lift than required to clear tires and close to stock axle width are important.

The Front axles need an upgrade, I want to get to bigger U joints and better axles to handle a locker or at least a trutrac in the front dif.

What I have to work with.
-Complete Dana LP 44 from a 83 dodge ram Flat top knuckles, warn hubs, wrong gears, wrong side dif, inner axles wrong length for anything.
-Bare housing from a 78 Full size HP dana 44 (cast C's not good for leafs)
-My Current HP dana 30 with the correct 4.11 gears.
-$1500 (canadian) think about $1200 USD
-Good fab skills (mig/plasma cutter/cut off saw/press/small lathe access).

Option 1

Upgrade current HP Dana 30
-Install alloy shafts (delete CAD) and trutrac,gusset and weld housing.

Pros=Basically a bolt in solution, good clearance, use existing gears, alloy shafts are stronger than stock dana 44 shafts at the joint, no wheel replacement required, easy wheel end service (am still running the orginal jeep hubs after 6 years).

Cons=No upgrades left, no lockout hubs, due to narrowed axle width long side inner axle would have to be custom, small brakes, front drive shaft is always spinning. 27 spline axles.



Option 2

Low pinion Dana 44
-narrow dodge dif and relocate housing to use stock length EB passenger side aftermarket big joint axle, stock F150 Drv side axle, Dodge outers, good spicer joints, tack welded. Detriot Trutrac (close to locker abilities, easier on parts). Re drill rear axles and drums for 5x5.5 bolt pattern and replace rims.

Pros=cost, larger Dana 44 carrier, low pinion clears my exhaust/oil pan (which are currently close (touched once on jump) to my HP Dana 30, real hubs, bigger brakes. Get a high clearance steering system.

Cons=Lots of labour, LP dana 44 gear itself is marginal if any stonger than my current HP dana 30, have to spend a good part of the budget on wheels, gears and steering linkage, and have to redrill rear drums and axles.

Option 3

Dana 44 hp
-cut up dodge dif and and F150 cast C dif and sleeve tubes to make HP DANA 44 about EB width Use stock length EB passenger side aftermarket big joint axle, stock F150 Drv side axle, Dodge outers, good spicer joints, tack welded. Detriot Trutrac Re drill rear axles and drums for 5x5.5 bolt pattern and replace rims. Build complete crossover steering system.

Pros=Larger Dana 44 carrier, Strongest gear option. real hubs, bigger brakes. Get a high clearance steering system.

Cons=Lots of labour, HP Dana 44 hits oil pan/exhaust/cross member, requires unwanted lift. Have to spend a good part of the budget on wheels gears and steering linkage (things that I already have), and have to redrill rear drums and axles.

Option 4

Hybrid HP Dana 30/44
Cut up dodge dif and and HP Dana 30 and sleeve tubes to make Dana 30/44 hybrid about EB width Use stock length EB passenger side aftermarket big joint inner axle, stock F150 Drv side inner axle, Dodge outers, good spicer joints, tack welded. 30 Spline Yukon Air locker. Build complete crossover steering system. Re drill rear axles and drums for 5x5.5 bolt pattern and replace rims.

Pros=Close to the same strength as LP Dana 44, more ground clearance, use existing gears, still have oil pan/exhaust clearance. real hubs, bigger brakes, real dana 44 axles fit with the 30 spline locker, future upgrade to alloy axles possible. True locker. Don't have to buy gears. With doubler t-case I only need 4.11 gears which means the gears themselves are not likely the weak spot in this combo yet. Get a high clearance steering system.

Cons=Smaller pinion shaft diameter and have to find a cheap source for compressed air for locker (probably old lincon air ride compressor from autowreaker). True locker more likely to break parts. Have to spend a good part of the budget on wheels and steering linkage (things that I already have), and have to redrill rear drums and axles.


What would you do and why?
(have looked for a better Dana 44 HP housing locally, can't find)

 

[dangerranger83]

Option 3. A Dana 30 isnt meant to do rocks and cliffs plus 35's and Dana 30 I'm told are a no no even worse with rock crawling. Plus with the addition of a 5.0 HO a D44 HP is the way to got.

I 've never heard of a D44 high or low pinion to hit the oil pan of any vehicle. If your doing a SAS, lift is mostly a requirement to clear everything.

Option 1: Isnt the way to go with what your decribing what its going to be used for. I've never heard of YJ's coming from the factory with a HP D30. On rocks you'll be snapping shafts, plus with the doubler case being used and all the torque being put to the wheels with the engine and low gearing that will happen faster.


Option 2: I wouldnt do if you can do it all with a HP D44. Its more work then Option 3 and in the end its still a LP.


Option 4 is to much work for very little gain. Its beating a dead horse this way.


But considering what its going to be used for and the engine and doublercase it has, I would go to D60 and not have much to worry about.

I will say you made one of the most detailed write-ups for everybody to read so that we can help you out with what you need to go with. Like you said this is what I would do. One thing I didn't see is that is this a daily driver? If not then why narrow the axles?

 

[4x4junkie]

Every YJ made came with a HP D30. Only '95 had the larger u-joints though.


IMO, I would use one of the D44 options. The weak spot on a D30 is the R&P gears, and there isn't much, if anything you can do to help it there. Throwing things like alloy shafts into a D30 is pretty much guaranteeing that if anything breaks, it'll be the gears.

Have you look for an '80s Jeep Wagoneer axle? These I think have enough offset that you wouldn't need as much lift as with a D44 that's EB width (or uses EB axles).

 

[dangerranger83]

I was thinking of the wrong Jeep, my mistake.

I would go for the D44 or higher with HP gears.

 

[2.3splash]

Have you look for an '80s Jeep Wagoneer axle? These I think have enough offset that you wouldn't need as much lift as with a D44 that's EB width (or uses EB axles).

I have looked into the narrow track/wide track waggy axle, but my leaf spring ends up almost on top of the dif if I keep the springs mounted under the frame like they are (which seems to be the best spot for tire clearance with a narrow axle).

 

[slammer67]

I'm using a waggy axle, I believe it's slightly wider than EB.

Here's a pic of my leaf mount

and here

but my leaf spacing is 29.5" (I think), which should be smaller than the yj stock, but my mounts aren't under the frame, there about 1/2 way under. I could probably move the leaf mounts in another inch without too much trouble, but getting the leafs directly under the frame would take some work. also, my leaf mounts are 3" wide, not 2.5" like the springs I have, so I could get them a little closer with the right sized mounts.

I think if you go leafs, the lp 44 is your best axle. although I'm not sure how your driveshaft would line up since its low pin, but the pinion sticks out farther, if your lucky, you might not need a new front driveshaft.
The HP axle will most certainly require you to shorten your front driveshaft, unless you move the axle forward a couple inches.

And I agree, you'll have less clearance issues with the lp 44, I did torch off the lower part of the crossmember to add clearance. but plenty of guys run HP 44's also.

If I had your options, I'd go HP 44, ditch the leafs and go coils and radius arms, but I wouldn't hesitate to use the lp 44 either, I have about 6" lift on my 95 ranger, and my driveline angle isn't steep at all, unless you have some hellatious lift, I wouldn't worry too much.

 

[rockwerks]

ITs always amazing to me to listen to those who have little clue about things rant about how poor the HP dana 30 is. My XJ's all cmae with HP Dana 30's and I have about 45,000 miles of hardcore trail use on them over the years. I have never broken a R&P but have gone through many axle shafts. Those miles are on 33 and 35 in tires. The actual weak point is the housing which you will need to truss to keep it from bending.

Remember when you build a rig you need to leave a FUSE in the system, a weak spot that is easily repaired. the hub axle assembly of the XJ or YJ is fast and easy trail fix.

My last XJ had the OX locker with the 30 spline shafts. with Yukon 30 spline shafts. and upgraded U joints makes it almost as strong as the LP Dana 44. It is an excellent option if built correctly.

 

[2.3splash]

slammer67... Thanks for the pics. I assume that is a narrow track waggy axle, yes? My Springs centered under the frame are on a 28" center spacing. With My current YJ Dif narrowed 3" it pulls the center chunk under the center of the truck and it looks much like your mount does, mostly on the cast part of the center housing just clearing the edge of the actual dif housing, but that is with a small 30 center chunk.

I am not at all worried about driveshaft angles, with the doubler t case the front shaft is long enough for lots of angle. I am also not worried about the front shaft length because it is worn out (slip yoke) and will be replacing it with the front axle swap anyhow.

I am still unsure, am seriously considering just building a LP Dana 44 with the full size Dodge dif I have. I could retube and narrow as required and use the stock dodge short side axle (which is about an 1" longer than the short waggy axle). Then I would move the dif forward under the truck some more and make the tire stop hitting the rear of the front fender. This would also allow me greater clearance under the truck then I have right now (cross memeber and oil pan etc.). And seeing as I would have both knuckles off I could twist the pinion up a little bit to keep the driveshaft angle a little happier and still keep decent caster. All I would need to actually buy would be one after market big joint EB axle (long side) a D44 trutrac and 4.11 gears. Looking the numbers below I could use a 30" long side axle for nice 60" WMS but I like the current width and I like using an axle length that is stock in something (in this case the EB).

Some Numbers
Inner axle lenghts/ WMS
Stock EB 18.31 / 27.94 /59
Waggy Narrow track Driveside dif 15.8 / 32.12 /61.5
83 Fullsize Dodge 17.11 / 37.22 /67
F150/Bronco 18.91 / 33.91 /65
My Custom 44 17.11 /27.94 / 58
My Current Narrowed Dana 30 WMS = 57.62
Stock Dana 28 WMS = 58

 

[2.3splash]

Remember when you build a rig you need to leave a FUSE in the system, a weak spot that is easily repaired. the hub axle assembly of the XJ or YJ is fast and easy trail fix.

My last XJ had the OX locker with the 30 spline shafts. with Yukon 30 spline shafts. and upgraded U joints makes it almost as strong as the LP Dana 44. It is an excellent option if built correctly.

Did you have stock 27 spline outers and hubs to go with that OX and 30 spline inner shafts? If so did that outer shaft (at the splines) break first or the shaft U joint ears.

The fuse idea is good, just would not want to have the outer shaft u joint ears breaking off and destroying the nice custom 30 spline inner shaft.

 

[slammer67]

you have a dana 30 narrowed? most like going wider with bigger tires, hence all the full width builds.
I was thinking my narrow waggy axle was like 60", but your probably right on your research, it's been awhile.

The wider you go, the less you have to worry about leaf spring spacing, I can see why you need the springs under the frame with a 57+ inch width.

If you are narrowing an axle on one side only, you might find that you have more room on the short side than my waggy setup. Your pumpkin may be closer to the middle than mine, which may propose different clearance problems, I'm not sure.
It's hard to believe the EB short shaft is longer than the waggy like your list says.

The good thing about doing your own axle is you can have the width you want, plus you can setup the caster that is optimum for your setup. on mine I made some compromises between caster and pinion angle, you could have the best of both worlds, but it's more work of course.

What's the width of our narrowed 8.8?

If you build your own, definitely show pics of the progress, custom axles are always cool

 

[rockwerks]

Did you have stock 27 spline outers and hubs to go with that OX and 30 spline inner shafts? If so did that outer shaft (at the splines) break first or the shaft U joint ears.

The fuse idea is good, just would not want to have the outer shaft u joint ears breaking off and destroying the nice custom 30 spline inner shaft.

most times your U joints go. Ive never broken an outer shaft, usually you break a joint by spitting a cup off, tack weld the caps on when you put it together. my last set lasted several years on 35" tires and rock trails like jackhammer, sledgehammer, Lost world, Axle Alley, etc.

My XJ was also my daily driver

 

[4x4junkie]

ITs always amazing to me to listen to those who have little clue about things rant about how poor the HP dana 30 is. My XJ's all cmae with HP Dana 30's and I have about 45,000 miles of hardcore trail use on them over the years. I have never broken a R&P but have gone through many axle shafts. Those miles are on 33 and 35 in tires. The actual weak point is the housing which you will need to truss to keep it from bending.

Remember when you build a rig you need to leave a FUSE in the system, a weak spot that is easily repaired. the hub axle assembly of the XJ or YJ is fast and easy trail fix.

My last XJ had the OX locker with the 30 spline shafts. with Yukon 30 spline shafts. and upgraded U joints makes it almost as strong as the LP Dana 44. It is an excellent option if built correctly.

I just tell it like I've seen out on the trails with my own two eyes.
I've seen enough stripped D30 ring & pinions to not ever think about using one with big tires under a heavy Ranger (especially with their weak housings). I've yet to see stripped gears in a HP D35 or D44 though, it's almost always the shafts (u-joints) that let go first with these axles.
I fully agree a "fuse" should be easily replaceable. The R&P gears certainly don't qualify very well as a "fuse".

 

[2.3splash]

It's hard to believe the EB short shaft is longer than the waggy like your list says.
What's the width of our narrowed 8.8?

Yes my D30 is narrowed 3". I tried it under the truck full width for mockup and did not like how far it put the tires out (daily driver street truck with 33" tires on 5x8 3.5" BS at the time with the stock width bronco II 7.5"). The leaf springs would not fit directly under the frame like I wanted either so the 3" out of the pass side fixed all that.


Yes the EB is short inner is longer than the FSJ, even more so if you run the 70's narrow track which has the super short 14.X inch short shaft (like the scout), but that diff is on the wrong side.

The 4.0L 90-92 Ranger 8.8 is 56.5"
The 93 up ranger 8.8 is 58"
The Explorer is 59.5" but may be wider in the newer years.

 

[2.3splash]

I just tell it like I've seen out on the trails with my own two eyes.
I've seen enough stripped D30 ring & pinions to not ever think about using one with big tires under a heavy Ranger (especially with their weak housings). I've yet to see stripped gears in a HP D35 or D44 though, it's almost always the shafts (u-joints) that let go first with these axles.
I fully agree a "fuse" should be easily replaceable. The R&P gears certainly don't qualify very well as a "fuse".

I know the TJ with its low pinion and 4.88 gears likes to eat teeth. I just wonder how many stock gear ratio (4.10 or less) HP Dana 30 gears ever let go before the good shafts break. It is a poll I should probably post on a jeep furom, might have some interesting answers. I have my doubts that there are less than half a dozen HP Dana 30's in the whole world where someone actually upgraded the carrier to 30 spline, renforced the axle tubes, and install cromo axles with improved joints and still run an OEM gear set. There is almost always a re gear involved at that level, then there is a question of lower gearing pinion diameter/tooth contact, gear manufacturing quality and gear setup. With that said I still don't feel good about being the ginnie pig to prove my theory:sad:

 

[rockwerks]

I know the TJ with its low pinion and 4.88 gears likes to eat teeth. I just wonder how many stock gear ratio (4.10 or less) HP Dana 30 gears ever let go before the good shafts break. It is a poll I should probably post on a jeep furom, might have some interesting answers. I have my doubts that there are less than half a dozen HP Dana 30's in the whole world where someone actually upgraded the carrier to 30 spline, renforced the axle tubes, and install cromo axles with improved joints and still run an OEM gear set. There is almost always a re gear involved at that level, then there is a question of lower gearing pinion diameter/tooth contact, gear manufacturing quality and gear setup. With that said I still don't feel good about being the ginnie pig to prove my theory:sad:

Very few on lower ratios once at 4:56 or over the pinion becomes worthless on a dana 30. also the driver has a lot to do with it. if you are a heavy skinny pedal driver you will break anything. A HP30 is 25% stronger than a LP dana 30

 

[rockwerks]

I know the TJ with its low pinion and 4.88 gears likes to eat teeth. I just wonder how many stock gear ratio (4.10 or less) HP Dana 30 gears ever let go before the good shafts break. It is a poll I should probably post on a jeep furom, might have some interesting answers. I have my doubts that there are less than half a dozen HP Dana 30's in the whole world where someone actually upgraded the carrier to 30 spline, renforced the axle tubes, and install cromo axles with improved joints and still run an OEM gear set. There is almost always a re gear involved at that level, then there is a question of lower gearing pinion diameter/tooth contact, gear manufacturing quality and gear setup. With that said I still don't feel good about being the ginnie pig to prove my theory:sad:

I have built half a dozen myself. Most of the time I did not install chromo shafts TNT customs sells awsome trusses for both the dana 44 or the dana 30. I am not saying the dana 30 is the end all axle but they will hold their own when built correctly. The last XJ a I built had HP dana 60's front and rear

 

[RangerSVT]

Not to encourage you one way or the other, but I can help you out if you decide to go with the LP 44...I have a set of 411 gears out of my LP 44 I'm building. I have not removed them yet, but I do have my gears to replace it, so if you want them, $75 and their yours. They are not really for sale just yet, but if you want them, you can have first dibs.
SVT

 

[Toreadorranger]

I have built half a dozen myself. Most of the time I did not install chromo shafts TNT customs sells awsome trusses for both the dana 44 or the dana 30. I am not saying the dana 30 is the end all axle but they will hold their own when built correctly. The last XJ a I built had HP dana 60's front and rear

I have personally seen HP D30 gear sets break on 33" and smaller tires. Even broke a set on stock 30" street tires. Cherokees come to my friends house to die. That being said, stick with a 44 center section, even a LP44 is stronger then a HP30. HP only adds so much strength where the physical dimension of the ring gear adds alot more. Sure you can build a D30 to "catch up" to a D44, but your still stuck with a weak housing, small brakes and small R&P.

 

[rockwerks]

I have personally seen HP D30 gear sets break on 33" and smaller tires. Even broke a set on stock 30" street tires. Cherokees come to my friends house to die. That being said, stick with a 44 center section, even a LP44 is stronger then a HP30. HP only adds so much strength where the physical dimension of the ring gear adds alot more. Sure you can build a D30 to "catch up" to a D44, but your still stuck with a weak housing, small brakes and small R&P.

I have seen Dana 60 R&P do the same thing, not being able to drive and trashing things for fun has little to do with the real world.

There are hundreds of thousands of jeeps out there with large tires and hitting the trails everyday with dana 30's

 

[Toreadorranger]

I have seen Dana 60 R&P do the same thing, not being able to drive and trashing things for fun has little to do with the real world.

There are hundreds of thousands of jeeps out there with large tires and hitting the trails everyday with dana 30's

Im not talking 1-2 ring and pinions, Im talking in the 8-9 range. A 30-31" tire no matter how hard we beat it, should not be stripping ring and pinions. Specially with no traction on street tires. Stock shafts should be popping left and right but not RP's. My buddies dad has a YJ with a built to the hilt front D30. full Warn hub kit with Alloy USA shafts, cryoed 4.88's. Pinions never break, the ring gear always strips out the teeth and its an open diff too. hes gone through 4 of them. This is with 37" MTR's. Doesnt break shafts just RP. As said before a D44 is a better choice hands down. The benefits are too great all around the board over a D30.